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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=809341319-04012001>Yahoo,
Lycos, GO, ...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Jeffrey L Price
[mailto:jeff@alexandriainternet.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04,
2001 12:43 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Scott Rogers; 'Bill Cartwright'<BR><B>Cc:</B> Adam
Douglass; vwp@arin.net<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ARIN
Justified...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have seen the term "lots" or "many", what I
would like to know is which search engines use IP address instead of
URL? Specifically by name.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-jeff</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com" title=SRogers@Affinity.com>Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:bill@hergoods.com"
title=bill@hergoods.com>'Bill Cartwright'</A> ; <A
href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com" title=SRogers@Affinity.com>Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:ADouglass@Affinity.com" title=ADouglass@Affinity.com>Adam
Douglass</A> ; <A href="mailto:'vwp@arin.net'"
title=vwp@arin.net>'vwp@arin.net'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001 11:18
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: ARIN Justified...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>Because if you don't, you will use up all the
available IP addresses.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>It's like tree's in a forest. They are
cheap. But if you cut them ALL</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>down, then what do you do for wood
?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>The problem is:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>1. We want lots of web
sites.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>2. We need IP
addresses.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>3. There are only so many IP
addresses to go around.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>So,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>4. How can I have lots of Web
sites, without using up all the IP addresses.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>Big guys (GE, IBM, CISCO, EBAY, etc) can afford
$1,000 or $2,000 per IP,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>which is what they could cost </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=421532516-04012001>if we exhaust
them (and have only a small pool left).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>Can you afford that </SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=421532516-04012001>much money to
start a web site? </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>The law of supply and demand will
</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN
class=421532516-04012001>eventually rule.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bill Cartwright
[mailto:bill@hergoods.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001
10:27 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Scott Rogers<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ARIN
Justified...<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why bother with name based hosting with all
the issues against it. If name based hosting prevents you from getting on
a search engine, why do it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Bill Cartwright<BR>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A href="mailto:SRogers@Affinity.com" title=SRogers@Affinity.com>Scott
Rogers</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:decosta@bayconnect.com" title=decosta@bayconnect.com>'Joe
DeCosta'</A> ; <A href="mailto:'vwp@arin.net'"
title=vwp@arin.net>'vwp@arin.net'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 04, 2001
8:53 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> ARIN Justified...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm the network engineer for a large dedicated
server/colocation facility<BR>and I agree that IP addresses and
their maintenance is a large pain in the<BR>ass. We have a little
over 1/2 a clacc B equivelent and are still growing.<BR><BR>I have been
trying to push customers to use "Name Based" virtual hosting,<BR>and
keep making the sales guys have customers justify needing more
than<BR>32 addresses. We charge $1 per address per month, so it's
an important<BR>revenue stream.<BR><BR>As a "network engineer", it's
also important to know that IP addresses<BR>are a "fixed"
resource. When they are gone, that's it. Yes, I know<BR>that
IPV6 will cure our problems. Well they have been working on
it<BR>for over 8 years and we don't seem realistically very close to
it.<BR><BR>People will hoard (hey anybody want to buy 48 pre CIDR class
C addresse)<BR>networks and address and then try to make a killing in
the parket. I<BR>remember several years ago people offering to
sell their class B addresses<BR>that they had from old APRANET days for
tens and hundreds of thousands<BR>of dollars.<BR><BR>My point is, that
the revenue stream is usless is you can't get more<BR>addresses
later. We have to push back at our customers for REAL
<BR>justifications, and my providers and ARIN have to push back to
me<BR>me for the same. ARIN, RIPE, et. al. then have to justify to
the IANA<BR>(or whatever) for allocations as well.<BR><BR>Market pricing
won't give us the conservation we need.<BR><BR>WHat will help is to
eliminate the need for REAL IP so people can use<BR>NAME based
servers.<BR><BR>Issues;<BR>* All browsers have to support HTTP/1.1 and
name based browsing.<BR>Mostly done now AOL and COMPUSERVE were
the biggest offenders.<BR><BR>* SSL Certificates may not always work
with NAME based due to<BR>reverse IP not matching the
certificates.<BR><BR>* The biggest issue (to my customers), the SEARCH
ENGINES need to<BR>support HTTP/1.1 and name based virtual
servers. Most do not.<BR>We, as a community, need to push the
search engines into building<BR>in support. If we do this, we will
solve a significant<BR>portion of the problem. The SSL
requirements I feel are probably<BR>not a siginficant portion of the
problem<BR><BR>Just my 2 cents.<BR>-- <BR>Scott W. Rogers <<A
href="mailto:SRogers@affinity.com">SRogers@affinity.com</A>>
+1-410-558-2750
(Fax:<BR>+1410-563-5457)<BR>Network/Systems/Security Engineer --
SkyNetWEB, Ltd. An Affinity Company<BR>3500 Boston St. #231
-- Baltimore, Maryland 21224<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Joe DeCosta
[mailto:decosta@bayconnect.com]<BR>Sent: Wed<BR><BR>nesday, January 03,
2001 6:26 PM<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net">Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net</A><BR>Cc:
Clayton Lambert; 'Alec H. Peterson'; <A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A><BR>Subject: Re: Been quiet
in here...<BR><BR><BR>now, how about this, raise the pricing, and then
donate the profit to some<BR>NPO, or some such thing, i just *HATE*
having to update the damned IP usage<BR>spreadsheet and sending it to
our uplink who owns the class C we have. its<BR>a pain in the ass,
ever time we move stuff around on our network....... It<BR>costs too
much time to do it that way. If the IP's are on a free
market,<BR>then why must we also then justify them?<BR><BR><BR>-----
Original Message -----<BR>From: <<A
href="mailto:Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net">Jawaid.Bazyar@forethought.net</A>><BR>To:
"Joe DeCosta" <<A
href="mailto:decosta@bayconnect.com">decosta@bayconnect.com</A>><BR>Cc:
"Clayton Lambert" <<A
href="mailto:Clay@exodus.net">Clay@exodus.net</A>>; "'Alec H.
Peterson'"<BR><<A
href="mailto:ahp@hilander.com">ahp@hilander.com</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A>><BR>Sent: Wednesday,
January 03, 2001 3:12 PM<BR>Subject: Re: Been quiet in
here...<BR><BR><BR>><BR>> That's because in the lack of a "free
market" for IP addresses, the<BR>> pricing was set arbitrarily - to
cover the expenses of operating ARIN.<BR>><BR>> That's not to say
that that is bad, or without reasoning. It's just that<BR>> if you're
going to disassociate the pricing from the costs necessary to<BR>>
administer ARIN, instead of raising the price to discourage waste,
you<BR>> should let people buy and sell blocks on an open market.
Free markets are<BR>> very sensitive to the scarcity of resources via
the price mechanism.<BR>><BR>> That's not saying I think IPs are
particularly scarce. I've made the<BR>> argument before that it seems
that CIDR is more about saving face for<BR>> Cisco's underpowered
heaps than conserving IP space.<BR>><BR>> However, the current IP
allocation system works fairly well, and in that<BR>> system the best
approach is to tell people to stop provisioning web sites<BR>> in a
wasteful manner that was only every necessitated by flaws in the<BR>>
original technology.<BR>><BR>> Besides, it's WAY easier to
provision IP-less web sites. :)<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> On Wed,
3 Jan 2001, Joe DeCosta wrote:<BR>><BR>> > This modification i
agree with, my only objection is that why should<BR>people<BR>> >
have to justify the usage of their netblock, why not just up the
costs<BR>to<BR>> > encourage them to use as few IP's as
possible. It would seem to be more<BR>> > effective.
Just my thoughts.<BR>> > ----- Original Message -----<BR>> >
From: "Clayton Lambert" <<A
href="mailto:Clay@exodus.net">Clay@exodus.net</A>><BR>> > To:
"'Alec H. Peterson'" <<A
href="mailto:ahp@hilander.com">ahp@hilander.com</A>>; <<A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A>><BR>> > Sent:
Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:40 PM<BR>> > Subject: RE: Been quiet
in here...<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > > We should
re-institute the policy with modifications to the text for<BR>> >
> clarity. Service providing should be the catch word instead
of<BR>> > web-hosting.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > There
should be clear reference to technical exceptions to the policy<BR>>
> (this<BR>> > > should NOT be in the form of specific
exceptions, as technical reasons<BR>for<BR>> > > exception to
the policy can easily step beyond the ability of a<BR>"list",<BR>>
> > hence the reason for maintainer discretion), only technical
exceptions<BR>> > > should be allowed (as opposed to policy
exceptions). The entity<BR>assigned<BR>> > the<BR>> > >
overall netblock should have discretion for determining the
exceptions<BR>to<BR>> > > the policy and should maintain the
documentation for the exception,<BR>and<BR>> > make<BR>> >
> the info available to ARIN on in audit-style format (NDA should
be<BR>> > manditory<BR>> > > between the Netblock
maintainer and ARIN).<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Clay<BR>>
> > Exodus Communications<BR>> > ><BR>> >
><BR>> > > -----Original Message-----<BR>> > >
From: <A href="mailto:owner-vwp@arin.net">owner-vwp@arin.net</A>
[mailto:owner-vwp@arin.net]On Behalf Of Alec<BR>H.<BR>> > >
Peterson<BR>> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 12:54
PM<BR>> > > To: <A
href="mailto:vwp@arin.net">vwp@arin.net</A><BR>> > > Subject:
Been quiet in here...<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> >
> Are there any more thoughts on what we should do with the
so-called<BR>> > virtual<BR>> > > hosting policy?<BR>>
> ><BR>> > > Alec<BR>> > ><BR>> > >
--<BR>> > > Alec H. Peterson - <A
href="mailto:ahp@hilander.com">ahp@hilander.com</A><BR>> > >
Staff Scientist<BR>> > > CenterGate Research Group - <A
href="http://www.centergate.com">http://www.centergate.com</A><BR>>
> > "Technology so advanced, even _we_ don't understand
it!"<BR>> > ><BR>> > ><BR>> ><BR>>
><BR>><BR>> --<BR>> Jawaid
Bazyar
| Affordable WWW & Internet Solutions<BR>>
foreThought.net
| for Small Business<BR>> <A
href="mailto:jawaid.bazyar@foreThought.net">jawaid.bazyar@foreThought.net</A>
| 910 16th Street, #1220 (303) 228-0070<BR>>
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